tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7396437919069310850.post7845975083440791919..comments2023-05-30T08:29:42.770-04:00Comments on The Erotica Readers & Writers Association Blog: We Don't Get No RespectCroco Designshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/04417265522875605547noreply@blogger.comBlogger12125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7396437919069310850.post-49318825180620251822015-05-03T21:56:08.270-04:002015-05-03T21:56:08.270-04:00Lisabet, Remittance Girl, I miss the way you have ...Lisabet, Remittance Girl, I miss the way you have at it with any topic.<br />This was fun to read...Word Actresshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04041865850513656748noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7396437919069310850.post-20542712095692595952015-04-22T08:25:26.609-04:002015-04-22T08:25:26.609-04:00BTW I am eagerly awaiting the opportunity to read ...BTW I am eagerly awaiting the opportunity to read your dissertation. It could in fact end up being a best seller!Lisabet Saraihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05162514190572269660noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7396437919069310850.post-35965763827911314672015-04-22T08:24:37.559-04:002015-04-22T08:24:37.559-04:00Hello, RG,
Thank you for your carefully construc...Hello, RG, <br /><br />Thank you for your carefully constructed critique. (I expected no less from you...!)<br /><br />I like your point about romance not having been pressured to provide anything more than a pedestrian use of language. Some romance authors do write very well, but that is in no sense a requirement of the readers. I know, from talking to my readers, that most of them don't care at all about style (at least not consciously) and many pay little attention to the plot. Characters are what interests them, vivid, believable and likeable characters with whom they can identify. <br /><br /> And I too have problems with the predictability of romance, both as a reader and a writer. It's extremely difficult to maintain suspense when the end is a foregone conclusion. I've read a few romances that actually pulled this off (Standish by Erastes comes to mind), but that's pretty rare. The best one can hope for, usually, is an author who can make you wonder just how in the hell the characters are going to get out of their dilemma or resolve their differences.<br /><br />As for healthy, egalitarian, committed relationships - perhaps I've seen more of them than you have. <br /><br />In any case, one doesn't have to personally *like* romance to give it a bit of respect. Lisabet Saraihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05162514190572269660noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7396437919069310850.post-61330646343314897122015-04-22T06:56:23.065-04:002015-04-22T06:56:23.065-04:00I think there may be two distinct forces working a...I think there may be two distinct forces working against Romance as a genre. There most definitely is, as you say, a strong social undercurrent of ridicule (which I suspect hides insecurity and discomfort) of any writing which focuses primarily on women's pleasure and erotic fantasy.<br /><br />The other is, I suspect more subtle and it is a rebellion against the idea that women can/should only revel in the sexual within the boundaries 'moral' boundaries of a love bond. i.e. sex without love is bad, wrong, immoral. It's the thing that animals and men indulge in, but women are of 'finer feeling'. <br /><br />Finally, I think there is a prejudice against romance as literature, because it hasn't been exposed to critical forces that push its prose to higher levels. For all the legitimate complaints to be leveled against literary fiction - and I agree, there are many - the expectation that language will be employed for more than just the pragmatic communication of a plot is a real one. This is by no means a criticism specifically of romance. It's legitimately leveled at all genre fiction. I love pulp writing, but I do truly revel in a work that uses language creatively, freshly, when it is brought to bear not only for telling purposes, but also poetic ones. <br /><br />What I take a little issue with in your essay is your defense of the HEA by saying that healthy, lasting, committed relationships DO exist. Yes, of course they do. But they are NOT the common course of a relationship. They are the exception, not the rule. In the same way that murder mysteries (not ubiquitously but traditionally) always represent justice as prevailing. Justice doesn't always prevail at all. <br /><br />My problem with reading romance is the inevitability of the HEA. I love fiction which features romantic entanglements and I am gratified as a reader when, on occasion, that that love bond becomes permanent.<br /><br />But I personally find the idea of picking up a book KNOWING WITHOUT A SHADOW OF A DOUBT that it will end in an HEA, before I even begin reading the first page, to be - metaphorically - futile. I feel the same way about a lot of thrillers, mysteries, horror, etc. <br /><br />As a reader, I require real emotional risk. For me, a journey into fiction needs to put me, as a reader, in peril - the risk of an ending I do not foresee. Otherwise, I find the reading to be, very literally, a chore. A slog. And this may be why, as a writer, the few times I have tried to structure out a plot before writing, I find it impossible to keep my interest alive to write the entire thing. As a reader, as a writer, I require the unknown in order for fiction to work for me.<br /><br />I have read some breathtakingly written romances. I've read romances with rich, deep, complex characters, with immense insight into the human condition. But knowing it was going to end happily robbed me of my enjoyment of the risk of not knowing.<br /><br />Having spend a good long time interviewing a lot of readers on the effects of the given of an HEA, I know that most readers love the HEA for exactly the reasons I hate it. For them, the knowledge of the eventual HEA allows them to feel safe to emotionally invest in the novel - to give themselves over completely to the emotional rollercoaster of the story. Something many of them would not feel willing to do without that guarantee.<br /><br />I understand this deeply. I empathize with it. I am just not interested, personally, in that safe relationship with a piece of fiction. <br /><br /><br /><br /><br />Remittance Girlhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07902713020074243375noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7396437919069310850.post-24882175226274268742015-04-21T22:54:09.057-04:002015-04-21T22:54:09.057-04:00I agree. And I'll also assert that the ability...I agree. And I'll also assert that the ability to tell a compelling story, to pull in readers and make them totally forget the outside world, is a rare and precious ability.Lisabet Saraihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05162514190572269660noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7396437919069310850.post-84157892453058672962015-04-21T22:52:53.192-04:002015-04-21T22:52:53.192-04:00Thanks, Spencer!
Your romances are a good example...Thanks, Spencer!<br /><br />Your romances are a good example of what I am talking about. Your women are definitely not shrinking violets! And your heroes love it.Lisabet Saraihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05162514190572269660noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7396437919069310850.post-4570668176672471132015-04-21T22:51:38.660-04:002015-04-21T22:51:38.660-04:00How recently have you read a (good) erotic romance...How recently have you read a (good) erotic romance? A lot of the stereotypes have been shattered. I think you might be a victim of mistaken impressions (or perhaps of having read poorly written romance). <br /><br />I'm not saying you have to like romance. Much of it drives me nuts. But not all. Try, for example, Now You See Me by Pamela Todd. Breaks the stereotypes right and left.<br /><br />And in what way do you see romance as "demeaning to the parties involved"?Lisabet Saraihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05162514190572269660noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7396437919069310850.post-57111597571314488292015-04-21T22:44:44.778-04:002015-04-21T22:44:44.778-04:00Actually, I think you're stereotyping "li...Actually, I think you're stereotyping "literary novels". I recently read "Flight Behavior" by Barbara Kingsolver, which I would definitely put in that class (though maybe you wouldn't). Marvelously evocative prose, flawed but delightful characters, and a masterful mirroring of universal issues within person ones. She made it look so easy ... but then so does Mozart.Lisabet Saraihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05162514190572269660noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7396437919069310850.post-71153322158484020572015-04-21T19:24:17.332-04:002015-04-21T19:24:17.332-04:00I agree with all of your points--to the limited ex...I agree with all of your points--to the limited extent that I can, since I don't read much romance. Well, any romance.<br /><br />But I think there's something else going on here. I think people look down their nose at all genre fiction because it's escapist and meant to entertain. And the other genres in turn give romance and erotica a hard time because, "Hey, I might be a space opera writer--but at least I don't stoop to writing ROMANCE (in a snooty accent imitating a literary writer's criticisms of space opera)." Maybe. <br /><br />The fact is, I bet most of you guys' writing could fly rings around some famous genre authors and most "literary" writers to boot. Plus it gets the reader off!<br /><br />tl;dr version--They're all just jealous! ;)Francis Dashwoodhttp://www.spacerotica.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7396437919069310850.post-61991207376488839552015-04-21T13:17:58.196-04:002015-04-21T13:17:58.196-04:00Lisabet:
Articulate, insightful with just the rig...Lisabet:<br /><br />Articulate, insightful with just the right amount of venom. Very well stated.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15484640447109164744noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7396437919069310850.post-91674946682533040962015-04-21T12:59:30.181-04:002015-04-21T12:59:30.181-04:00I can't read or write romance, or even erotic ...I can't read or write romance, or even erotic romance, because I find the stereotypes and tropes embarrassing. I can't relate, I don't want to. It isn't a question I of literary merit, it is a matter of finding it demeaning to the parties involved.Sessha Battohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15569927397738788073noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7396437919069310850.post-22348245123743112212015-04-21T12:13:31.141-04:002015-04-21T12:13:31.141-04:00Fabulous post, Lisabet, and very heartening. Ther...Fabulous post, Lisabet, and very heartening. There is definitely more to romance and mommy porn hating than a cool analysis of literary merit. Alyssa Rosenberg's comment really helped me see both why "high" literary fiction seldom does it for me anymore (and especially why Franzen and Eugenides just don't speak to me) and why women deserve their "fantasies" of importance the same way male readers need those lone-man-saves-the-world adventure thrillers.<br /><br />I would argue that literary novels have plenty of constraints. The writing has to be exquisitely self-conscious to show how smart and gifted the writer is. The protagonists have to be full of self-doubt and in need of family therapy. Sex must be troubling and punished in some way, never, ever a joyful, life-enhancing act. I could go on. Just don't try to write a literary characters someone would actually want to be.<br /><br />Love your ending here--a very happy one. I will be reminding myself, whenever I'm feeling doubt, that my respect for my work, my readers and women's stories is the heart of good writing and true satisfaction in story-telling. As Jane Eyre said, "<i>I</i> care," and that changes everything.Donnahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13615190390845433428noreply@blogger.com